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Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions
Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events (view source)
Revision as of 22:29, 11 June 2020
, 11 June 2020→The Scratch: didn't turn out as conciliatory/synergetic as I hoped, but here goes
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:::For what it's worth, I am not entirely sure that it's the "flowering shrub" that caused the infection, and not, say, something in the air or dew or such (which would fit in better with the airborne "biological contamination" mentioned in {{C|4}}). Of course, if it's in the air, then it's not clear why it's not going for Jamie's and Hasegawa's eyes right away. Or, for that matter, if it's so pervasive, then why was it safe for Hasegawa to have Jamie dying "in [his] arms", almost French-kissing? It's all very sketchy. It could be resolved to some extent if we say that the Hasegawas ''were'' wearing some reasonable protection, and it's just Konoko's "dreamaroids" that picture them hiking into a supposedly afflicted area unprotected. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::For what it's worth, I am not entirely sure that it's the "flowering shrub" that caused the infection, and not, say, something in the air or dew or such (which would fit in better with the airborne "biological contamination" mentioned in {{C|4}}). Of course, if it's in the air, then it's not clear why it's not going for Jamie's and Hasegawa's eyes right away. Or, for that matter, if it's so pervasive, then why was it safe for Hasegawa to have Jamie dying "in [his] arms", almost French-kissing? It's all very sketchy. It could be resolved to some extent if we say that the Hasegawas ''were'' wearing some reasonable protection, and it's just Konoko's "dreamaroids" that picture them hiking into a supposedly afflicted area unprotected. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::In my conception of the Wilderness, each species has its own defenses. The flowering shrub ''really'' doesn't mix well with human physiology. Other flora/fauna may be fairly non-reactive with humans. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::In my conception of the Wilderness, each species has its own defenses. The flowering shrub ''really'' doesn't mix well with human physiology. Other flora/fauna may be fairly non-reactive with humans. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::Sorry (again), but to me that kind of variety definitely sounds uncomfortably reminiscent of Nausicaä, and together with the apparent stability of "untamed" Daodan symbiosis (wildlife looking like regular wildlife) it's too much of a miracle. In {{C|12}}, at least, we would have seen at least some mention of the "raw Daodan" (Chrysalis-less), how stable and undetectable it is, how contagious it is (or not? one moment you say that a dandelion seed is enough to corrupt a whole area, and then you end up saying that it doesn't propagate between species?), and how it's actually at the heart of the "impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere" as perceived by Hasegawa -- we'd have seen at least some of that, unless Kerr himself was completely in the black about that whole part, and moreover Griffin's whole team of sci-goons was locked away from the truth somehow. If we turn to Oni material, then Daodan science (both on the TCTF side and the little we see of the Syndicate side at the Mountain Compound) seems to revolve around symbiosis and the Chrysalis. Mukade's creepy "torn apart to make way for what we will become" is Chrysalis-consistent and that's it. Muro, too, focuses on the Chrysalis as a source of power and opposes it only to "choking on dead air and foul water", seemingly considering the deadly pollution as generic and mostly man-made. The Directorate frowns down on Griffin's Damocles, seeing no justification for radical measures. So, at the end of the day, my question is: if there is, in Oni's world, a secret Daodan-powered biosphere competing with "ours", and if that secret never surfaces in canon Oni, then whose secret is it, really? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:29, 12 June 2020 (CEST) | |||
:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | :::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
::::My version of the Wilderness is indeed not stopping. The WCG has fenced it in (using whatever technology we want to imagine), but it's still spreading. Once in a while it touches down in a new remote location and grows too far before it can be killed off. Think of a forest fire: you can contain it, but it can also jump your attempts at containment. In this case, the Wilderness is spreading both underground and through the air. This is explained in scientific terms in a couple different places I'm too lazy to link to. To be clear, the Daodan doesn't jump from species to species (my Jamie hypothesis above was not a part of my "Daodan theory", it was just a lark). It remains lodged in each species' DNA (or what-have-you), but each species is exceptionally good at doing what life does: multiplying itself. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ::::My version of the Wilderness is indeed not stopping. The WCG has fenced it in (using whatever technology we want to imagine), but it's still spreading. Once in a while it touches down in a new remote location and grows too far before it can be killed off. Think of a forest fire: you can contain it, but it can also jump your attempts at containment. In this case, the Wilderness is spreading both underground and through the air. This is explained in scientific terms in a couple different places I'm too lazy to link to. To be clear, the Daodan doesn't jump from species to species (my Jamie hypothesis above was not a part of my "Daodan theory", it was just a lark). It remains lodged in each species' DNA (or what-have-you), but each species is exceptionally good at doing what life does: multiplying itself. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 03:23, 10 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
:::::I have several persistent problems with SoW, and the supposed "containment" of the Wilderness is one of them. | :::::I have several persistent problems with SoW, and the supposed "containment" of the Wilderness is one of them. | ||
:::::*From your description it would look like the Wilderness is so good as spreading (if left to itself) that the WCG would need a whole Wilderness Preserve Task Force to keep it in check: super-fences running on kitten farts (somehow missing from Hasegawa's tale), tight control of airborne spreading, and more generally a whole army of [[wp:SCP_Foundation|SCP]]-like scientists and/or Men-In-Black going around looking for new spores, stamping out nascent contamination and hushing up any knowledge thereof. | :::::*From your description it would look like the Wilderness is so good as spreading (if left to itself) that the WCG would need a whole Wilderness Preserve Task Force to keep it in check: super-fences running on kitten farts (somehow missing from Hasegawa's tale), tight control of airborne spreading, and more generally a whole army of [[wp:SCP_Foundation|SCP]]-like scientists and/or Men-In-Black going around looking for new "spores", stamping out nascent contamination and hushing up any knowledge thereof. | ||
:::::*Somehow the Wilderness issue (and its supposed connection to the Daodan) is so well hushed-up that even Kerr sounds a bit condescending towards Hasegawa's alarmism, as well as the rest of the Daodan team at the Science Prison: ''"Professor Hasegawa's theory was that the Daodan Chrysalis would replace damaged or weakened biological systems in the host body as required, enabling humans to survive '''what he saw was an impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere'''''." -- and then they go on to analyze the regenerative properties of the Chrysalis, which were suitable from Hasegawa's "doomsday" perspective but seem overkill to less emotional scientists almost 20 years later. | :::::*Somehow the Wilderness issue (and its supposed connection to the Daodan) is so well hushed-up that even Kerr sounds a bit condescending towards Hasegawa's alarmism, as well as the rest of the Daodan team at the Science Prison: ''"Professor Hasegawa's theory was that the Daodan Chrysalis would replace damaged or weakened biological systems in the host body as required, enabling humans to survive '''what he saw was an impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere'''''." -- and then they go on to analyze the regenerative properties of the Chrysalis, which were suitable from Hasegawa's "doomsday" perspective but seem overkill to less emotional scientists almost 20 years later. | ||
:::::So, I don't know, to me it looks like Zones are just home to carelessly disposed-of biological WMDs. The bush thing essentially caused Jamie to rot alive, whereas the manual gives us exploding eyes and melting bones ("horror stories" backing up the Uprising, which weren't necessarily 100% made-up) -- from my point of view, this fits together rather well. | :::::So, I don't know, to me it looks like Zones are just home to carelessly disposed-of biological WMDs. The bush thing essentially caused Jamie to rot alive, whereas the manual gives us exploding eyes and melting bones ("horror stories" backing up the Uprising, which weren't necessarily 100% made-up) -- from my point of view, this fits together rather well. | ||
::::::''I am not too keen on modern-day social commentary in sci-fi, but it fits in well with certain Russian realities, too: waste burial sites (including NBC) that are made "easy to ignore" for a while, and then resurface and result in serious health hazards; this especially a problem because of how large Russia is, which makes it harder for activists to mobilize around a hazardous dump in the middle of nowhere -- although lately it's been happening in and around Moscow as well).'' | ::::::''I am not too keen on modern-day social commentary in sci-fi, but it fits in well with certain Russian realities, too: waste burial sites (including NBC) that are made "easy to ignore" for a while, and then resurface and result in serious health hazards; this is especially a problem because of how large Russia is, which makes it harder for activists to mobilize around a hazardous dump in the middle of nowhere -- although lately it's been happening in and around Moscow as well).'' | ||
:::::The Phase can give a sci-fi twist to WMD/NBC dumps -- experimental teleportation gone bad, or secret labs inside the Zones, rather than dumps --, but that's as far as I would go (at least that's how I feel right now). Dumps/leaks (Phase-enhanced or not) can be contained if the WCG really care about solving the issue, but if they don't they can just be fenced off, with | :::::The Phase can give a sci-fi twist to WMD/NBC dumps -- experimental teleportation gone bad, or secret labs inside the Zones, rather than dumps --, but that's as far as I would go (at least that's how I feel right now). Dumps/leaks (Phase-enhanced or not) can be contained if the WCG really care about solving the issue, but if they don't they can just be fenced off, with airborne emanations contributing to the BioCrisis, but only steadily, allowing the WCG to counter with ACC upgrades -- a perfect "pet threat". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:25, 11 June 2020 (CEST) | ||
===Daodan Genesis=== | ===Daodan Genesis=== | ||