Oni2 talk:Truth Number Zero/Course Of Events: Difference between revisions

::::::::::Though to be clear, if you're trying to stick to canon, there is pretty clearly no place we could call "Phase". Rather there is a technology which shifts the "phase" of objects between this world and another. So there's no in-between place, though insofar as objects can be partly shifted (cf. phase cloak) they would exist in both places at once. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Saying "pretty clearly" is pushing it a bit. The existence of "another world" isn't directly stated in Oni, only in Hardy's description of a "Screamer World", but there's the WPge mention of how the Screamers "seem to exist out of Earth phase". Regardless, we seem to be agreeing on the "fact" that the Phase is like a "fringe" (or hub), rather than an alternative Earth. You call it a "veil", I call it the Phase, but we're still referring to this ever-changing "in-between-ness" that's immediately adjacent to our world, but which no one (at least in Oni canon) has been able to traverse. Whether there are 3D worlds beyond the "veil", and how many if any, we do not know. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::Just so you know (or remember), projected weapons for "my" Oni2 included a "halver" (something that would decrease your presence in this world with every hit, and shifting presence to "another world" (or to immaterial "limbo presence"); while "halved" you would be less visible to others, and you would get visions of the Phase (and/or of the "other" world). Same for teleporting -- while "phased out" your vision of the "real world" is blurred and augmented with "phase visions", not unlike wearing the ring in Jackson's LOTR. I also wanted to have "screaming swords" and "screaming whips" -- life-draining, blood-less "cold weapons", which would operate and look similarly to Spirit claws/tentacles from Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::If it were up to me, I wouldn't keep much of those "[https://3dbrute.com/homunculus-loxodontus/ Waiters]" or their human/Daodan proxies, except for the notion that the Phase is tied to "Gaia", i.e., that you can't do phase tech in outer space. It would explain why Oni's sci-fi-powered civilization isn't actively colonizing Mars or the Moon, and it would keep the plot "Earth-centered" in a [[wp:Ring Around the Sun (novel)|Ring Around the Sun]] kind of way. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:06, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::To me, it would be much more surprising if the world of Oni ''was'' doing anything advanced in space. Where do you think ''we'll'' be in 12 years? Even colonizing the moon? Doubtful (sadly). Oni's world doesn't feel a lot more advanced than ours except for their phase tech, and there's nothing in the canonical depiction of that technology which would aid in settling another world. I would expect Oni's world to be ''less'' advanced in matters of space than ours, seeing as they have some very time-consuming and expensive issues to deal with here on Earth. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::You're still making a baseless comparison between a bush (no agency, nor mobility) and a human being. What really makes Konoko a troublemaker? Her Chrysalis or her personality? We seem to have very different views of that subject. On a sidenote, I'm shocked that you haven't read Hardy's posts yet. Why the apathy? --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::I haven't found the time to re-read ASFO2, either, or SoW, or RS/CB. We all have our realities (children, working hours, RL projects, conflicting hobbies), so things happen when they happen, not sooner. I am not apathetic to Hardy's work (can't really say until I read it, though), but you of all people should understand how attention span works. Re:bush, it seems to me like you're reacting to the wrong thing. Oni's scientists see the Chrysalis as ominous ("what the presence of such a creature might portend for humanity we cannot know", etc), regardless of her impetuous personality (although it matters too, rash decisions and all). Your Wilderness is ominous too (per Oni canon, Hasegawa saw is as an "impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere"; you're giving it a different twist but it's still a doomsday scenario). But they're very different ominousnesses, and it's presenting them as two sides of the same medal that seems forced to me. The ''variety'' of Wilderness lifeforms, their poisonousness (as opposed to a Chrysalis's resilience), and how the Daodan scientists only talk about the Chrysalis -- that's what sets the two concepts apart (in my impression). The Daodans that were used to enhance Konoko and Muro, and the ones that are supposedly enhancing every living being in the Zones -- they look like very different Daodans to me, so much that I would just as soon label them differently: Daodan as the thing powering a Chrysalis as per Oni canon, and "Shmaodan" or whatever as the alien invasion proxy virus thing that supposedly killed Jamie. I'm only speaking my mind, of course -- this is just how I feel about your theory here and now. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::On a sidenote, I don't see a strong correlation with Nausicaa's and my work, so perhaps this Miyazaki manga is just an obsession of yours. I could easily reduce your ideas to references to existing works as well, but haven't done so. "There is nothing new under the sun." All we can do is try to present old ideas in a new light. Presuming that you can create anything truly novel is vanity. And putting words in my mouth to make my ideas seem more Nausicaa-like is especially rude, so please stop. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::::The edit history of the Nausicaa page(s) seems to indicate that you've been fascinated with the Wilderness/Sea-Of-Corruption parallel as much as myself, if not more, and the insects splashing into airplanes and/or seeding new territories just rang ''so'' many bells for me (sorry). Anyway, you are bringing up an important point -- not only are we bound to "contaminate" the story with cultural influences or tropes, but the very core of our work is referential/parasitic since we are "enhancing" an existing work by Hardy&Co, as if it was in need of an enhancement. I don't feel guilt over this, but I do feel a certain responsibility. If it was a new story we were telling, then we would be entitled to any kind of creative licence -- including, and not limited to, the "nothing new under the sun" attitude, i.e., more-or-less indiscriminate "melting-pot"-ness. For a derivative work, I feel like I need to be super-careful and super-discriminate about the alienation. Using Kerr's lexicon: whatever the final form or our work, it should be an expression of Oni's true nature. And, to take the analogy even further, I would hate it if, by the end of my work as a storyteller, Oni grew horns and became all livid and veiny-like. "Glorious, isn't it?" -- do not want. That's all. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:24, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?), but I'm trying very hard to keep additions and "departures" to a minimum. Biopunk, as far as I can tell, is already in Oni (it doesn't matter that it started as a GITS clone -- by 2001 it already had an identity of its own, with the original SLD and Daodan/Chrysalis concepts at its core). And the balance with cyberpunk is achieved quite naturally, because you still have those huge machines for growing/monitoring all the biotech, the man-machine interface, sub-dermal chips and cables, cyborg parts, etc. As for the rest, I tend to list alternative takes intermixed with my preferences, so you may not always realize how little I'm actually adding. For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (CEST)   

::::::::"Not sure what you mean with the role of "game design" (2D/3D themes/assets? or gameplay choices?)" — the former. The atmosphere of the game will be cyberpunk precisely to the degree that the levels are set in cyberpunk surroundings. If the focus, on the other hand, was on exploring the Wilderness, it would be a very different game indeed. I'm not suggesting we do that, if you look at my settings concepts on the SoW Settings page. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::Ah, so for you "bio-punk" would be a Nausicaä kind of adventure, where we'd wander deep into the Sea of Corruption (poisonous forest) and unravel its mysteries. For me bio-punk is just cyberpunk but with SLD brains instead of positronic ones (grown in a life-like fashion, instead of engineered), and the protagonist being eaten alive by her own hyperevolved cancer clone. Even if there are computers all around, and the setting is a jungle of chainlink and concrete, that's still bio-punk to me --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:31, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::::To me, a biopunk world that looks like a cyberpunk one but with organic cyborgs instead of mechanical cyborgs is not very interesting. What's the difference between a cyberpunk story where someone's nanites are restructuring their body and the premise of Oni's Daodan Chrysalis? It's just window dressing; swapping out one SF terminology for another. If there isn't lots of ''life'' in a biopunk story, rather than a lot of concrete and glass, I fail to see the point of invoking a new genre. But I do want to reiterate that I am not arguing for an all-Wilderness sequel, but rather one that still feels significantly cyberpunk. Some levels would be Wilderness-based, but more would be set in typical areas of human habitation. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::::"For one thing, I haven't had any need for Forerunners or Protheans so far". No, just intelligent non-corporeal aliens that guide the development of the Daodan telepathically from across the phase veil ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:11, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::::Nice try. In my view, the Daodan (aura) ''is'' the immaterial sentient(?) entity that's leaking in from the Phase and coordinating the growth of the Chrysalis, one per symbiote -- i.e., just what we have in Vanilla Oni, no new names or entities needed. Calling them "phase gods", giving them other names, praying to them, or implying that they're proxies left by ancient civilizations -- that will be up to specific characters and their perverted interpretations, but fundamentally it's something that's already in Oni. I thought that was clear. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 18:25, 10 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::Sorry (again), but to me that kind of variety definitely sounds uncomfortably reminiscent of Nausicaä, and together with the apparent stability of "untamed" Daodan symbiosis (wildlife looking like regular wildlife) it's too much of a miracle. In {{C|12}}, at least, we would have seen at least some mention of the "raw Daodan" (Chrysalis-less), how stable and undetectable it is, how contagious it is (or not? one moment you say that a dandelion seed is enough to corrupt a whole area, and then you end up saying that it doesn't propagate between species?), and how it's actually at the heart of the "impending collapse of the Earth's biosphere" as perceived by Hasegawa -- we'd have seen at least some of that, unless Kerr himself was completely in the black about that whole part, and moreover Griffin's whole team of sci-goons was locked away from the truth somehow. If we turn to Oni material, then Daodan science (both on the TCTF side and the little we see of the Syndicate side at the Mountain Compound) seems to revolve around symbiosis and the Chrysalis. Mukade's creepy "torn apart to make way for what we will become" is Chrysalis-consistent and that's it. Muro, too, focuses on the Chrysalis as a source of power and opposes it only to "choking on dead air and foul water", seemingly considering the deadly pollution as generic and mostly man-made. The Directorate frowns down on Griffin's Damocles, seeing no justification for radical measures. So, at the end of the day, my question is: if there is, in Oni's world, a secret Daodan-powered biosphere competing with "ours", and if that secret never surfaces in canon Oni, then whose secret is it, really? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 00:29, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::You're right that Oni's canon has some implicit conflicts with my proposal. So does yours, unless you think Kerr just forgot to mention to Konoko that the Daodan aura seems to be intelligent. No matter what, a sequel with any commitment to specificity whatsoever is probably going to have to gently retcon the first game. I'm not concerned about small gaps between the canons of games made over 20 years apart. And remastering the original after Oni 2 will be a good opportunity to fix that ^_^ --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::To be clear on my proposal, because I seem to be doing a bad job explaining it, a daodandelion seed would not be "corrupting" anything per se; it would simply be taking root and growing. The life that moves in from beyond the phase veil is exceptionally good at adapting to our world, and so the "other world" is gradually replacing our species invasively with its own. As these species grow, of course their natural byproducts are somewhat foreign and sometimes toxic to our existing life. Once the lowest trophic level, plant life, is established, that paves the way for insect and animal life that lives off these plants. That in turn paves the way for the meat-eating life, the predators of the other world. Eventually the trophic level will rise to the point that the Daomen can move back in to their old world. I don't claim that this is an iron-tight scenario, but it's the premise I've been working from. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::OK, so (correct me if I'm wrong) the Daomen/Diluvians would need to seed the WPs with daodandelions and other plants first, then wait a while, then inject bottom-of-the-chain animals, then higher lifeforms... In each case the new lifeform would be Daodan-symbiotic, and while not mutually contagious or contagious for ordinary Earth flora/fauna, the enhanced lifeforms would adapt ''to each other'' by forming a new ecosystem tier (xeno-ecology on top of the native biosphere), with its own system of defenses (some forms would end up poisonous, like Jamie's bush, others would be much less lethal). --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::Now that I'm more or less clear on the contamination process, I am going to ask a mercilessly stupid question. If the Diluvians are all about water (not just hibernating on the ocean floor, but apparently pouring water at us as part of the invasion), then what do they care about the above-the-surface biosphere, and how come they're colonizing it with a full-blown garden-of-Eden (plants, insects, herbivores, carnivores), when it would look like they should be xenoforming the oceans (aquasphere) instead? Even if they need toxic air on the surface, it would make more sense if they pumped it in in large quantities through volcanoes and geysers and such (Yellowstone and Kamchatka as WPs? hmmm...). If I were them, I'd also be responsible for the greenhouse effect, because, melted icecaps, Waterworld sweet Waterworld. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::"As long as that plant contained the Daodan, it doesn't matter if anything else did." As I said above, the similarities between Jamie's cellular breakdown and Daodan symbiosis are actually minor, and even Hasegawa's notion of a "poisonous world" doesn't quite describe the Wilderness as you see it (in my opinion), as well as Muro's "dead air and foul water". But, even if the bush was Daodan-enhanced, Hasegawa would want to know if it was just that one bush that was "poisonous", or that particular bush species, or, as he actually puts it, the whole "world outside the Atmospheric Processors". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

:::One thing that you're not making clear in your Wilderness theory is how it spread a lot at first, engulfing large areas, and then seemingly stopped. If Daodan symbiosis propagates upon contact, and each affected cell becomes a new source, then wouldn't the WCG need to build new rings of fences every week? Also, it it's so good at spreading-upon-contact, then wouldn't it have hit Hasegawa too? Airplanes flying over a Zone notice contamination in the air -- spores? pollen? -- and Hasegawa is down there breathing that stuff... And, for that matter, if it causes noticable contamination on aircraft then why hasn't airborne propagation caused generalized Daodanization yet? --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 11:46, 9 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::You raise good points. I have not given much thought yet to how my Xeno-Wilderness is being contained. I figured that placing the typical SF "energy shields" around the perimeter would be good enough to convey a sense of containment. The WCG itself is unaware as of the start of Oni 2 just how much life is escaping containment above and below that fence, but this would be revealed in the course of the story. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::My problem with the super-fence is that it sounds like a non-trivial installation, about as crucial/capital/vital as the ACCs, and yet it is completely missing from Hasegawa's tale (judging by the accents in his narrative in combination with the dream-a-roids). That, and how Daodan science is depicted as revolving around the Chrysalis, with the Wilderness cited only as the source of Hasegawa's "doomsday mindset". --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

::::::I'd actually like to back up to a higher level and address what I think is your largest single question, which is, "Why complicate things when it's clear that Hardy just intended the Preserves to be waste dumps?" I felt it was necessary to diverge from this approach precisely because of the derivative feeling of the "social commentary". Industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada. Been there, done that dystopia. Likewise, if Oni's world was said to be warming dangerously, I would find some way to subvert that narrative into a more interesting, less "concern of the moment" type of problem. Star Trek IV was entertaining but nowadays nobody has any idea what it's going on about with all that whale stuff. --[[User:Iritscen|Iritscen]] ([[User talk:Iritscen|talk]]) 16:27, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::Well, alien-engineered global warming sure would come in handy if it made Earth more "waterworldy". I may be getting it wrong, but your Daomen/Diluvians would actually be at home in a world with no icecaps and a significantly higher ocean level. It's still be a reference to the modern-day issue of global warming, but with an alien-initiative twist that could possibly act as a redeeming factor (if done right of course). As for Hardy's take on pollution, I think that there's not a lot to diverge from, actually, because canon Oni is no longer hammering it home as "industrial pollution, large corporations, yada yada". Jamie was killed by an unidentified "virus", there are mad scientists doing ghastly stuff (Navarre), bioweapons are hinted at in the manual, and Phase tech can "enhance" man-made pestilence further, power-of-seven-fold if needed. So it's not like WPs are pure eco-activist cliché and can only be redeemed through alien ingerence. At least that's how I feel about it. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 19:18, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

===Daodan Genesis===

:::::::Indeed I meant the Virgin Birth thing, although I wouldn't say the Immaculate Conception has no relation whatsoever. It's the same Mary, and there were discussions about how maybe the IC wasn't just about the miraculous lack of original sin, but also about the lack of personal sin (by choice) right up to the Virgin Birth, and how maybe Mary was conceived without Anne and Joachim actually doing it (or liking it)... But you're still right, of course, I meant the Virgin Birth. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 10:36, 8 June 2020 (CEST)

:::::::P.S. You may find it interesting that in Russian (as opposed to other languages), the term "Nyeporochnoye zachatiye" -- i.e. "immaculate (lit. sinless) conception" -- is used both for Christ and for Mary, and by default it's used for Christ. There is no separate term for "virgin birth" or "virgin conception". In Latin there's "Virginalis conceptio" (Christ) as opposed to "Immaculata conceptio" (Mary). That sort of explains why my Soviet-Russian mind naturally picked the words "Immaculate Conception" up there. --[[User:Geyser|geyser]] ([[User talk:Geyser|talk]]) 23:05, 12 June 2020 (CEST)

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